Conversations with grammarati
~ 30 January 2006 ~
Incredible. Today’s post marks the fourth in 7 days. That’s a record for me. I suppose I just can’t stop writing of late, though don’t expect that trend to continue.
Speaking of writing, I received this email last week from a reader we’ll call “Bobby” (name changed to avoid embarassment to said reader).
Now, I don’t mind a good correction when warranted, but when someone takes their craft — in this case, writing — so seriously that they feel obligated to condescend any offenders, I take issue with that.
However, I managed to hold back and send a tempered reply:
Bobby wrote this in return:
My reply? Went a little something like this:
Oops. Guess we all need a little correcting from time to time.
70 Comments
Veer: Visual Elements for Creatives.Stock photography, type, and killer tees. Genuinely recommended by Authentic Boredom.
If it’s any consolation, I like the email graphics and typeface :D The person sounds like a Mensa member.
And so does Wikipedia.
Kudos to you Cameron for being both polite with this guy, and for calling him out on his mistake. I hate it when people like him call people out on their mistakes when they aren’t even perfect themselves. I frequent some forums where people will complain about everyone else’s spelling and ‘grammer’. I love to remind them that it is really ‘grammar’. :-)
And keep on writing Cameron! Don’t stop this fast paced writing. I enjoy reading.
Even I, having been called a “Grammar Nazi” on occasion, won’t go this far. I understand the need for starting a sentence with a conjunction now and then (okay, all the time - it’s just they way I talk, therefore, the way I write).
And as for the whole preposition thing, that’s largely been forgotten. (That started with a conjunction) To quote whoever said it: “That’s the sort of English up with which I shall not put.”
Spirit of the law. As long as it’s comprehensible, who cares?
More on that ending with a preposition: that’s prescriptive grammar. This article on that very topic should explain more than enough.
Oh, and this post was both excruciating and excruciatingly funny. Good thing I’m Dutch, that gives me an excuse when my English sucks.
You critic needs to read a wonderfull book entitled The Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson in which he devotes an entire chapter to why the grammar rules that we attemtpt to bind English by just don’t work. It is a chapter that every “grammar nazi” should read. The point is that most of the rules that exist for English grammar are taken from Latin which is not a root of the English language since. It evolved from German, therefore, most of them do not make sense. It is why we have so many exceptions in English.
There is no such thing as perfect english. And cudos on handling this nut so well.
Way to give it back to him!
There’s always someone with far too much free time.
I, for one, think your writing style is fabulously clever. It’s friendly, intelligent, funny and informative. In my book, someone like you with the ability to bring that all together has, and should use, whatever creative license is needed.
Ha! Nice one Mr. Mole ;)
There surely is an unspoken rule that states that when people are being overly critical of another, they will undoubtedly be inserting their foot directly in their mouth. This so-called writer is no exception to the rule.
I’ve got to say this person is an ass for saying that programmers are immature and then calling us “it”. Why do people insist on insulting what they don’t understand? It’s a disgusting quality that is more common than not. Whatever happened to the golden rule?
Thanks, Chris.
Go Bobby!
(Just kidding. What a jerk. BTW, Cameron got some time too. *smiles*)
How ironic, huh? Good show, and hey … I read your articles all the time, and NEVER even noticed. Call me the “average” user.
Wow. Since when are bloggers or writers in general writing for the mere approval of others, especially highly silly others?
Writing is as much an art as painting or whatever. It’s a personal, creative process, plain and simple. You don’t dictate how someone writes, just as you don’t tell them how to paint or carve a wooden statue.
I’m known as a grammar nazi, but I only pinpoint typo’s out to people when a) I know it actually is a typo, and b) I know they’d appreciate me pointing it out for them (as a helpful gesture). What “bobby” boy did is beyond civil behaviour and goes into “rude” and “crazy” territories. Or would that be cra-zy?
I’m sorry… I just don’t have time for crap like that. I’m impressed you even replied. *DELETE*
Hey, that’s my masking tape. Ha! I recognize it all the time. I’m such a nerd.
…And some folks just can’t stop. Correct people on the black & white issues; leave the rest. I’m with Josh, I’d probably just delete that one.
Yes, that would be your masking tape, Dave :-)
I think the guy wants you to hire him as your pit-bull proofreader. You’re supposed to be impressed with his acerbic wit. That we could all be blessed with such skills with which he has been blessed.
Wow. I don’t get emails that are THAT idiotic, but, in some small part, I feel your pain (in the neck). ;)
Oh good grief!
Programming is not a skill?
Two definitions from Merriam-Webster:
1) the ability to use one’s knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
2) a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability
I think both of those definitions apply to programming.
Now, to be fair, I also looked up craft:
1) skill in planning, making, or executing
2) an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill
3) a boat especially of small size
Emphasis mine. :-D
And God said, “Let there be light…” He then purportedly observed, “It’s really OK to begin a sentence with a preposition sometimes. Now go forth and stop killing each other.”
Owned. (Oops, that’s a one-word sentence!)
Two things came to me as I read this post:
1) there are a lot of stupid people in the world.
2) those tape-adorned scraps of worn paper you’re using to show your email conversation are awesome! totally jealous! :)
It’s one thing to be a jerk, but you should at least be RIGHT if you are rudely correcting someone.
[sarcasm]
You disingenuous English American slacker! Or is that American English … or American who doesn’t know english … or … damn .. anyway…
Cameron, you must be much more careful if you expect to be taken seriously! Next thing you know, someone will catch you wearing white shoes after Labor Day! Let’s hope you don’t weat any tennis shoes outside the set boundries between Memorial Day and Labor Day!
[/sarcasm]
[thought]
man I hope this mad skillz programmer allows bbcode in his comments…
[/thought]
[actual]
Keep up the great work Cameron! … Thank you for sharing this little dialog betwixt the valiant Freelance (aka Free-lance) web programmer and the idiot savant english minor.
[/actual]
Oh! My! God!
I can actually imagine pretty well what would happen if I received such a mail:
First, my mouth would drop open, staring in wonder at the concentrated idiocy.
Then, blackness would for a moment obscure my vision.
Finally, depending on my temper, I’d either hit the Delete key so hard the keyboard would break, or I’d start typing a furious reply, only to delete it halfway through when I realize the jerk doesn’t deserve and answer and might just have been out to annoy me anyway.
Hey, maybe you can sue him under that new US law.
A buddy of mine that has worked for newspapers his whole life conforms to what’s known as the “AP style” of editing. He has pointed out on more than one occation that ending a word with a preposition is the least cared-about writing mistake anyone can ever make.
I’m glad this guy’s high school teacher knocked it into his head but he’s wasting his breath on a mistake that really isn’t considered a mistake anymore.
Och, well fended old man!
What particularly interested me was this line: (paraphrased to be hip n quick)
“Writers don’t know the first thing about writing, they just have a story to tell.”
Well, duh! Writers should focus on the story! It’s only the boo-hah modern smarter than thou writers (or any artist for that matter) who focus more on the technique than on the actual work they’re producing.
Oh, and I’d just like to bannish another common myth: Writers don’t nead too spelll propperley either. At all. Editors are more than happy enough to do that for you as long as you produce a compelling story. (Sorry school teachers!) (Note: A very succesful writer told me this once - it is true. Really.)
yes! love the paper and the masking tape! and im curious how that email even started? i mean, where did he get that freelance was one word? how funny. cheers!
melissa
www.melissagalitz.com
I am blessed to read your dialogue. Woops!
I guess all of us have a stick shoved up somewhere beckoning someone to dislodge it every once in a while. I’m just glad I was able to watch this one. It makes me smile.
“Cameron Mole?”
Any relation to Adrian? :)
Melissa - Probably “Full-time freelancing: 10 things learned in 180 days”
Oh, that’s hilarious!
You’d think he’d have the brains to use spell-check before sending an e-mail on this subject. Wait, if he started this type of arguement, I suppose you woudn’t.
BTW – I’m really digging the paper and masking tape e-mails!
*argument
ROFL
For my “authentically boring wisdom” … (grins with a smirk thrown in for comfort)
Some of the most interesting blog writers around strangle the english language in the most appalling way.
Even though at times I feel the standards should be brought up (usually around 1am when my own grammar is slipping), I can’t but believe the internet would be a dull place if everyone was so shiny clean.
Mine is awful at times, passable at best.
And time is the problem here … for those of us who are not polished, who has the time to rush to ‘The Elements of Style’ before each post? It’s enough that I’m forced to spell check along the way.
(Is that spell-check, or spellcheck, or spell check these days? Not even my dictionary can keep up)
c
I’d take it as a compliment at best. Apparently, “Bobby” found your informative strings of thought and consciousness applicable to the necessary constrants of English Grammar. I’ve never really taking much time to appreciate the “finer” points of grammar or how to properly use them. It should be noted that most writers are not professionals with grammer either, that’s why they have editors. If I’m not mistaken, you don’t have an editor on your staff, do you?
Rudeness is bad. Uninformed rudeness is bad and good for a laugh. That’s what I took away from this.
Those using this to celebrate their own disregard for grammar are missing the point.
Surely that should be ‘my exquisite grammarian friend’?
I bet you grammar- and spell-checked that final reply at least 10 times.
Must not f*** up… Must not give him more material… Must not give him easy response…
Well done for keeping your head. Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Touche, Adam.
Hey, wait. Maybe he’s asking that you “accept that they have a story to tell”.
I know it makes no sense contextually, or at the very least runs contrary to what he was just saying, but it does make sense grammatically. Otherwise, wouldn’t he have written “except when they have a story to tell?” Maybe he’s not guilty of grammatical errors, just giant logical inconsistencies.
*Sigh, this must be the hardest part about having such a well known and popular blog. you get to hear the rebuttal and other wise unwarranted comments of faceless opponents.
i on the other hand am not a blogger, i dont care to be, nor do i think that i have that much to say that would deserve a blog. although its funny that i find myself here everyday, reading your knowledge that you bestow on us, looking forward to your articles and witty humor. there is only one blog i read, and Cameron Moll, this is it.
thank you once again.
.singed all of your beloved fans
This blog is way sycophantic. The email was not worth a reply. The correspondence was not worth a post. The post was not worth a comment, let alone 44 of them. And yet, here I am, writing the 45th.
I like to reply with: Yawn.
It infuriates those like our dear Bobby.
I do not think there very many people who speak or write perfect English. Who wants to live life like that besides uptight ‘writers’ or underappreciated educators? Has anyone ever read a legal document? They are exhausting.
My suggestion is write what you have to say to best of your ability and make sure your personality is reflected in your writing. I can almost gaurantee that a person with a reasonable level of intelligence will understand what you are saying.
The emailer made the biggest mistake of making a grammatical error while correcting someone else. What a loser….
Programming is not a skill? Are you kidding me? It’s a skill and a craft…some might even call it art.
Great post!
In tenth grade, my teacher claimed that it was unprofessional and grammatically wayward to begin a sentence with “it.” Good writers simply didn’t do so.
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times…” I quoted in reply.
The funniest thing about this is that Bobby wouldn’t DARE speak in the manner he addresses you with in person. People like this often use the anonynimity of the internet as their social shield, allowing them the grace of being as tact as they’d LIKE to be, without resorting to use the nettiquette he SHOULD have.
Ok, that’s too many big words for me. I’m leaving the writing up to Cameron.
My only beef with your site? Put your mouse cursor in this box when writing a reply. Now tab. Oops. To the top of the page I go, rather than to the preview or post buttons below. TABINDEX bro! ;)
I cannot believe you didn’t light him up for misspelling your name.
The important thing to consider is the net effect of this correspondence: this guy looks like a brash idiot with not enough real work to do.
While I understand your choice to anonymize him (that’s right, anonymize), I think we’d all feel better if we knew his email address. Maybe you can coordinate some type of “leak” through one of your high-profile blogger friends.
A NOTE TO BOBBY: Weigh In!! We’re talking about you!!!
I suppose Mr. Bobby needs to remove the plank from his own eye??? And yes that sounds religious. And yes I started two sentences with an and.
People like Billy are called antf***ers in Belgium and I had the pleasure of meeting them too :o)
From Lynne Truss, author of Eats, Shoots and Leaves, a terrific book that should be read by all who write:
Severely prescriptive grammarians would argue that, since they were taught at school in 1943 that you must never start a sentence with “And” or “But”, the modern world is benighted by ignornce and folly, and most of modern literature should be burned
Dear Billy,
Say hello to Pugin for me while you’re in the 1830s.
P.S:
This sentence no verb. ;D
I once wrote an article for a South African publication and got a lot of bad response by a couple of “language experts” for two grammatical errors. The horror of public critisim. However, what people seem to miss is that good advice has no right or wrong way of expressing same. What counts is that the message comes across. And that it works.
From an early poster:
‘To quote whoever said it: “That’s the sort of English up with which I shall not put.”’
The credit for that little beautie lies with Winston Churchill, an uttering he completely failed to live down.
Wow… quite incredible. It’s good to be correct, but some people take it WAY too far. Also, he made an error in his first letter - the O in of shouldn’t be capitalized - a preposition in an otherwise capitalized line shouldn’t be capitalized.
Good job putting up with him Cameron!
-d
Hey I’m looking foreward to seeing you at @media 2006 =)
Looks like Bobby got a little taste of karma! Hahaha, that was funny, I wonder if he will respond to that response?
Pure gold, man. What a great read. :) I definitely tend to have a more strict sense of grammar, myself, but it’s largely evolved from a set of “best practises” I’ve learned over the years. As for the whole preposition thing, beginning a prepositional phrase with a preposition is usually a good way to maintain clarity, but as Churchill’s famous example demonstrates, it’s not always the most clear option. I’m of the opinion that it should really only be required if the word immediately following the preposition is the same preposition. (e.g. “… in in…”)
But generally speaking, getting the message across is the most important thing. Kudos to you for sticking to your guns. :)
Oh, and was that Optima you used as the typeface in the emails?
(I am not Bobby.) Cameron, you responded with admirable, even incredible, restraint. Even if Bobby were right-on with his grammar prescriptions, that’s no excuse for writing an intentionally insulting email to a perfect stranger. The original email is so insulting that I almost can’t believe it’s real. That’s never appropriate, and is a more important mistake than your respective grammatical errors. Maybe public excoriation will teach Bobby to show a little more class in the future.
You mean:
“The farce of that dim-witted personage!”
hehehe….
Ian - Yes, Optima.
“Mole”?
Yikes… That’s some seriously unwarranted hostility.
I don’t know if it has been mentioned yet, but ending a sentence with a preposition is NOT erroneous.
There’s a guy named Paul Brians, an English professor at Washington State University, that explains this. Go to the following link and look under non-errors at the bottom of the page. He also has many other interesting things on his site, such as a list of commonly misheard phrases.
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html
That’s one of the more surreal conversations that I’ve read in a while…
I would love to read a blog by an anal grammarphile!
I think I have been a recent target of Jeremys correction of the word “Grammar”, when writing an article about “Grammer” on my own blog. Guys like the email writer miss the point of language, it is fluid, my point is spelling mistakes and bad grammar are just fine as long as everyone knows what you’re talking about. A lot of people can’t master that though… Hense the need for some advice sometimes (even if some things are spelt wrong). I love how impassioned people are about grammar or lack of it though :)
I think Bobby was the kid that always got hit in Dodgeball. Dodgeball is one word, right?
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1 Jason ~ 30 January 2006 at 11:07 AM
Merriam-Webster tells us, in fact, that “freelance” isn’t hyphenated.